Breaking Financial Stereotypes: Money Attitudes and Behaviors in a Diverse World with Cara Macksoud

Eric Brotman [00:00:03]:

Welcome to Don’t Retire Graduate. The podcast that asks you what you wanna be when you grow up so you can graduate into retirement with purpose and passion. I’m your host in valedictorian, Eric Brotman, and this is not only the 5th season finale. It’s also the show finale. After 5 full seasons and over a 100 episodes, it’s time for me to graduate to my next adventure and I’ll share more about that at the end of the show. Naturally, our finale has to be something special, and our show today is going to be extraordinary. Our guest today is Cara Macksoud. Kara is the CEO of Money Habitudes. She completed the Financial Therapy Graduate Certificate at K State University, and holds a BS in finance from NYU’s Stern School of Business. She’s a certified financial behavior specialist, a member of the financial Therapy Association and serves on their membership committee. She’s also a member of the Association of Financial Counseling And Planning Education and is an AFC candidate. Most importantly, I completed my own money habitudes online, and Cara’s gonna provide me with some much needed therapy on air today. Cara, welcome to the show.

Cara Macksoud [00:01:10]:

Oh, welcome, Eric. I feel like this is a big moment for us today?

Eric Brotman [00:01:15]:

Well, it’s a big moment for us. It’s a big moment for the show. It’s a big moment for me personally and you’re a therapist. So I can think of nothing better. I’ve been I’ve had butterflies all morning. I’m a little nervous about the show because it’s the last one I wanted to be amazing. and I also wanna be very transparent. This this program that that you run is is really terrific. I wanna go into the details, let people know how to how to learn more about it, and how do their own. And I’m hoping you’ll give me some, I I can’t ask you for wisdom, but at least analysis of of what you found when I when I did mine. But First, would you introduce yourself to our audience and and a little bit about not just you, but about money attitudes?

Cara Macksoud [00:01:54]:

Sure. So as you mentioned, Karamax soon. I’m the CEO of Money Habitudes. my journey getting here has been really interesting. It’s been my early career as a trader on Wall Street, and then I moved into after I had a family, I have 5 kids. I moved into nonprofit work. And, my casket during my nonprofit work was really to bank unbanked participants. And what I realized after working with now the wealthiest of individuals in New York City and then working with the lowest of income people in the same city was there were all these ideas and beliefs, habits, attitudes around money. And it didn’t actually matter how big or small the bank accounts were. The ideas were still the same. And that’s what prompted me to go back to graduate school. and get my degree, from case state. And in, you know, during my school time and going for my AFC, you know, to be be going to became a candidate, I needed to do experience hours. And I found money attitudes, which was a twenty year old company at the time, that provided an assessment tool for people to really kinda check-in with themselves and and counselors use it to help people check-in with themselves where they are with their money. you this is used often prior to, like, you know, where how you know, what does the budget look like? they don’t know how I feel about the money. If we don’t know what your priorities are, we don’t know what to put in your budget line. So religion beliefs, cultural beliefs, if you’re in a relationship, if you’re in a relationship and you have another relationship, right, that maybe you have an a blended family and you’ve got other things. Everybody has different priorities. And I think often we forget that there’s a human behind the money. So I went to intern at money habitudes to get experience hours. And the next thing I know I I was the, don’t retire graduate. I was somebody else’s graduation plan. So here we are. I’ve I’ve now acquired the company. It’s been about a year, and, it’s it’s been a journey so far.

Eric Brotman [00:04:01]:

Well, I I’m glad to be one of your early adopters or participants. I know the company is twenty one years old, but I I still consider you a freshman. for this purpose anyway. So so money habititudes really is something that you mentioned that it can work for folks at the high end of the network spectrum. but also at the very entry level of that spectrum. And it really comes before some of the financial planning and some of the stuff that that folks like like Mead who. so walk us through it. There are 6. Correct? There are 6 ampitudes?

Cara Macksoud [00:04:34]:

Yeah. So the when the research was on money habits, we identified that there were 6 domains that your money kind of falls under your categories. Let’s say of how you associate your money. What does your money do for you? So as you mentioned, before we get to budget, before we’re gonna tell you, you know, we’re gonna make you 8% What is it that you even want that 8% for? Who are you as an individual? Where are your, you know, your values? Where are your concerns? What do you go to bed at night worried about? Right? And so is that your children, is that your church, is that your parents back in another country because your 1st generation here, and you’ve got others that supported you getting here. Right? We all have associations, and money is so relational Right? And so the 6 domains cover, right, where our money falls into the categories. The assessment itself is 54 quick statements, that fall under the 6. So there’s 9 cards in each domain, and there’s no right or wrong answer. Although financial professionals do you tend to think there’s a, like, I got a 100 as they call it a test, and we are very adamant about it not being a test. This is about where are you along these spectrums? And are they working for you? Because just like we know with let’s call it blood work, for just something that everybody can understand. Everybody’s analysis doesn’t work for them the same way. If I have high sodium, And I’m but this is hereditary. It doesn’t bother me. I’m not on any medication that it’s going to be concerned with. I should be aware of it, but I don’t need to really be concerned. But if I eat bags and bags of laser potato chips, I’ve got high sodium And I’m taking a medication that’s really recommended you don’t have with high sodium. I need to be more aware of where I’ve fallen on that sodium scale. Right? And so therein lies that, you know, understanding where you are and it’s not a one size fits all. I wanna stress that.

Eric Brotman [00:06:42]:

Okay. Well, first of all, you brought up phlebotomy, and that makes me uncomfortable. My palms are sweating at the thought I don’t like needles. I don’t want that. Secondly, as a financial professional, I want you to know that I did wanna get a 100 although I didn’t study for it because much like my high school career, I went in with a clean slate, so it didn’t clutter my mind with facts and figures. because that seemed like the right thing to do. So let’s talk about what these 6 attitudes are. And please please feel extremely comfortable to relate them watching and listening. And, I think they know me pretty well, and I thought I knew myself pretty well, but maybe there were a few surprises here. So let’s let’s dive in.

Cara Macksoud [00:07:28]:

Yeah. And so I would before we start, were you surprised by your results?

Eric Brotman [00:07:34]:

yes and no. I was surprised at how balanced the results were. You know, I I thought they’re you were impressed that they were balanced? I I don’t

Cara Macksoud [00:07:43]:

The way because I look at financial professionals. Right? We’re really a B2B company. I don’t see individual clients myself. I support practitioners across the globe in 11 different industries, credit unions, universities, planners, you name it. but financial professionals Mhmm. I’m now looking at the research, look the same, and I was actually not just impressed, but when I recognized in your assessment, was I was looking at someone who was a bit more open minded to another way of getting to the finish line. Now what I what I don’t have and you don’t have is I would have loved to have seen what your assessment look like 20 years ago. Mhmm. Mhmm. I think you and I would both agree it probably wasn’t as balanced.

Eric Brotman [00:08:36]:

So so unlike an aptitude test, which really never changes. This is something that changes with age, with wisdom, with maybe, experience or comfort.

Cara Macksoud [00:08:46]:

So what we say is you as an individual rarely make a major change. Right? Like, you don’t go from 0 to the 9 cards on the spectrum. Right? And so this is the best relation that I’m able to make again, I’m a very visual to help people really understand. When you think of water, it’s H2O. You add 1 molecule of oxygen. So you have 202, you have a completely different substance. And so when people look for change in their habititudes, I don’t look for you to go from 0 cards to 6 cards or 9 cards in a habit. What I look for is 1 or 2. And what I saw with you particularly, Eric, which I don’t see on a whole with financial professionals is you have those 2 cards in carefree and those don’t usually exist financial professionals. They’re dominant security. They’re dominant in planning. And so wait. Let’s just roll back one second. Right? The 6 attitudes. Let’s call them out for your audience. We’ve got carefully. We’ve got giving. We’ve got planning. We’ve got security. We’ve got spontaneity, and we’ve got status. Cat free is basically saying, I’m not thinking about consequences. I’m not thinking about the future. I go with the flow. It’s not like, I’m not taking the lead on this. Money’s there. I’m not really sure. carefree and I put the big asterisk here. Carefree is the only attitude that we’ve been able to identify that is not, like, given to you from birth. Meaning that if you put 2 infants in a room together and you put 50 toys without fail, both infants will eventually be looking for that same toy. Right? It looks injured on playing with it. You come over. You’re like, I wanna play with that. You’re playing with it. Right? Carefree is what we would call Something that’s either happened from a financial inflection point, a financial, you know, moment in time, a trauma, anxiety. There’s a reason why people often are dominate, let’s call it, and carefree. 1 or 2 carefree can be very helpful. not to dig too far, but one of the things we’ll say to a lot of traditional retirees at this point We need a little bit less of the security and planning. We need a little bit more carefree and spontaneity because time is go the money is gonna outlive the time. Right? So but good good habits die hard. Right? You and I both know that. but let’s keep going. Right? Then we’ve not giving Giving is really you’re driven by the joy of giving. Big thing you wanna remember here is I’m not thinking about the receiver. I get joy of giving. I get joy of giving, you know, others or doing fathers. That doesn’t mean I have the money to do it. That doesn’t mean I have the means to do it. It just means that I like to do it. I feel validated. I feel good about it. Now — k.

Eric Brotman [00:11:48]:

—

Cara Macksoud [00:11:48]:

what when we talk about, which I just mentioned a little earlier, when we talk about money, we cannot talk about the elephant in the room. Our time is directly correlated to our money. And so when we look at that, when I see people that are dominating giving, They are often the same person that they’ve got no time for themselves. They’re babysitting for their sibling, their cleaning mom, their dad’s house, they’re driving people to the doctor’s office. They they are over when they’re dominant again in giving, It’s not just money. They give their time. They give their energy. They give. So just remember, money attitudes. We’re talking about your money, but it’s really money touches every aspect of our life.

Eric Brotman [00:12:32]:

Alright. Well, you just peg my mom completely because she’s gotta be if she were to do this, she’s all giving basically all the time. And god lover, there’s a special place in heaven for people like that, but but, you know, it’s a lot. It it’s definitely a lot. So okay.

Cara Macksoud [00:12:48]:

Would you would like just food for thought here? Do you feel that she’s enabled anybody in their lifetime?

Eric Brotman [00:12:55]:

Without question.

Cara Macksoud [00:12:57]:

Okay. So there’s

Eric Brotman [00:12:58]:

a lot of — Not me, of course.

Cara Macksoud [00:13:00]:

Not you. Maybe it’s sibling. Maybe it’s

Eric Brotman [00:13:02]:

— I’m not going there on air.

Cara Macksoud [00:13:04]:

Not doing it. Okay. Uh-huh. You can edit that part. Right?

Eric Brotman [00:13:09]:

No. That’s alright. We’re we’re transparent today.

Cara Macksoud [00:13:12]:

Okay. Great. I love we’re gonna we’re gonna have the audience wanting work here.

Eric Brotman [00:13:16]:

I hope so. Yeah.

Cara Macksoud [00:13:18]:

Planning planning. Planning really talks about that you use your money for that plan. You’ve gotta you’ve gotta, you know, steps in your head. You’ve you’ve come up with, like, this is how I’m gonna get there. Big Astros here. just because you have a plan doesn’t mean it’s a good one, and it doesn’t mean it’s the right one. And the more dominant you are in planning, is the less likely you are to pivot when the plan is not working for you anymore. Right? And so K. Retirees that were really great at those 401 k’s and putting away all those tax advantages, you know, things throughout their lifetime. Plan plan plan plan plan plan. They’ll show up 7, 8, 9, and that’s awesome. But again, time now works against them, and they don’t know how to flip flop at a planning to become a little bit more loose. Right? So that’s that big one we wanna pay attention to there. security. Right? You look to your money to provide you a safe and secure, you know, keep you locked in, keep you So oftentimes when somebody’s super dominant in that, you’ll see squirrelling of money. You’ll see even if their dominant is well in planning, They may have the plan, but then they may not be able to relinquish the money because of that fear of not having that security blanket for lack of a better way of describing it. we’ve got status. Right? Money is really used as a way to, like, make sure others know that you’re you know, doing well, at the dominant level. Right? You’re looking to fit in. You’re looking to stand out. You’re using your money and now giving and status, oftentimes get misconstrued, right, because if I take you to dinner and I’m always paying or, like, I take you on a vacation and I pay. like, wow, she’s such a giver. She’s so nice. Well, is it giving, or do I really want you to think I’m doing so well? And so I pay for everything because it’s status driven.

Eric Brotman [00:15:14]:

So does this mean that what can we test this? I because I’d like you to pay for a vacation for me. And I’ll decide after and depending on where you send me, I’ll let you know whether I thought it was giving or whether I thought it was status.

Cara Macksoud [00:15:27]:

Yeah. I mean, we can we can absolutely. Think of think of people who give and really aren’t in the financial position, but they know sitting at that board table or, right, and that’s just a a black and white example, but it happens everywhere. I have a great story, one day. for you and I of of a situation that I thought somebody was being so nice to me. And I realized I was just a pawn in their stepping stone to where they needed to be, and I had the access. But and that happens. Right? So and then the last one, spontaneity, Spons and eighties, I’m using my money. I’m gonna enjoy the moment. I’m not worried about the consequences. I’m aware of them. Different than carefree. We’re like, I’m not thinking about I don’t even know if the consequences exist. spontaneity. It’s it’s spontaneity is it I’m engaging. I’m creating the action. Whereas with carefree, more of like a go along. So just again, being aware of those 2. spontaneity, right, with a lot of the digital media we have today and with a lot of, like, social media scroll, click and buy, click and buy, we are seeing a higher level of spontaneity in this next generation just because of the environment. So I don’t wanna us here for a second, but I just wanna make your listeners aware when you think of money messages and how we’ve gotten our habits, our behaviors, our attitudes, We need to recognize a few things. There’s the non verbal messaging that we’ve gotten at home. According to the American Psychological Association, by the age of 7. We already have an idea around currency and how it works and who’s controlling the money And that’s all around what we’ve like, remember, by the age of seven, how much how much command of a language do you really have, but you’ve witnessed things You’ve seen things you’ve made associations. Right? It’s also cultural, religious. You know, what is your family’s experience? What is the community you’re living in? Are you part of a church where tithing is, you know, something that’s not just because I wanna give, but it’s part of, like, what you have to do because that’s part of your, you know, community. and so understanding all of these different components makes for those money messages, those behaviors, those attitudes. And so, you know, if you’ve grown up in a blended family, a single parent home, grown up with grandparents, like, all of these things touch our money because we don’t get anywhere without money. And the whole goal to going out to work is money, and people think the money is really what determines the life. What determines life is how you define that money. and what that money is gonna do for you. Right? It’s not your Benjamin and my Benjamin look exactly the same. They don’t tell us when they go to our wallet, how they wanna be spent. We tell it how we’re gonna spend it.

Eric Brotman [00:18:33]:

Okay. So so 54 questions, you say? 54? 54 questions. 5th more questions than

Cara Macksoud [00:18:40]:

in each domain. Not

Eric Brotman [00:18:42]:

and then there are 13 13 cards get dealt out. This is like a taro reading. I have a long line over here, and a shorter one over there.

Cara Macksoud [00:18:53]:

all 54 get dealt out.

Eric Brotman [00:18:56]:

Right? Oh, they do. Okay.

Cara Macksoud [00:18:57]:

Right? Because so from your report, right, you just you’re calling the 13 as the ones that you selected as that’s me so that you

Eric Brotman [00:19:08]:

—

Cara Macksoud [00:19:08]:

the cards in three piles. You go through every single statement. You say that’s not me. That’s sometimes me, and we’re gonna we’re gonna really talk about that one. And then that’s me. So this that’s me cards you are selecting. I do that. I know it. I’m aware of it. Then that’s not me. You’re saying, not me. I don’t do that. The sometimes We don’t know until a practitioner works with you. Why? Why are those in the sometimes pile? Who are you with? Where are you? What is your feeling at the time? Is it right? Like, people who are eaters at night right, are not eaters in the day. So when you would say to them, do you snack? And they’re like, not really, but at night, right, so They’re not a no, but they’re not a yes. They’re in that sometimes pile. And so being aware of that is really, really, really important because you need to know where your triggers are because now your assessment is if you’re more embedded with your triggers, Right? You’re gonna lean more on one side than the other.

Eric Brotman [00:20:18]:

So looking at the report that I have in front of me, which is — Correct. And and you said You you use the word impress, which is good. All of my tests should impress everyone, except maybe those blood tests we talked about. my my highest my highest score was planning, which is logical based on what I do for a living, but it wasn’t overwhelming. And my lowest my lowest was status, And then everything else was sorted in the middle and it was a tie, which was which was kind of interesting. Planning was the highest. So the the balance was good. Now I look at things like planning. I had 4 that’s me’s, but I had some sometimes in there. Care free. I had to that’s me’s, but I had 7 not me’s.

Cara Macksoud [00:21:00]:

So — Not me.

Eric Brotman [00:21:01]:

It’s not that I’m it’s not that I’m not paying attention. It’s that there

Cara Macksoud [00:21:04]:

are times where I’m just

Eric Brotman [00:21:05]:

not I don’t worry about money.

Cara Macksoud [00:21:07]:

Well, let’s let’s dig a little deeper. Right?

Eric Brotman [00:21:10]:

Okay. I’m ready. I’m ready. I’m sitting down.

Cara Macksoud [00:21:13]:

You took the assessment as the individual. Right? You’d come to the practitioner, and what I would look at is which particular cards of the carefree pile did you put in your that’s me pile because you’re clearly not carefree with sex.

Eric Brotman [00:21:27]:

Well, do you have that? I don’t know.

Cara Macksoud [00:21:30]:

I do because when as the practitioners are on the honor platform offers, remember, we’re B2B. So our platform offers what’s called a practitioner’s report for each client that we can look more in-depth So with the cards that you selected, as that’s me, is I think things will work out. So I don’t worry about money. and I like to keep my options open. I don’t wanna be tied to a plan. Now I will ask you what my initial assumption is This wasn’t always you planned so you could get to a place where you have option Right? Options don’t come from people who don’t plan. Options don’t show up for people with Like, if I saw these cards with somebody who had no planning, no security, right, my concern is, like, they’re waiting for a bailout from someone else. Right? They’re looking to others in your situation. Remember, this report is not about a right or wrong. It’s about the practitioner understanding the client, what the client’s coming in to see them about, and then how are these habits and behaviors supporting that outcome we are looking for. So — Okay.

Eric Brotman [00:22:44]:

—

Cara Macksoud [00:22:44]:

the fact that you’re a planner, Eric, but you’re, as we’re on this last show today, and you’ve decided to pivot means, right, what we’re seeing it right here in the live flesh that you’re not so stuck on. This is the end all be all. you’re able to say, I’m a planner. I’ve planned for it. And now I see my next option in front of me, and I’d like to take advantage of that. And instead of overworking myself, driving myself bananas, trying to do it all, I’m gonna close one chapter, and I’m gonna open the next. Right? And so the part of I think things will work out. I don’t worry about money. You’re a financial planner. We know that’s not what’s driving you, but at this stage of your life, I’m assuming And I could be wrong, and I know you’re not supposed to assume, but based on our relationship and and what I think I know, right, I’m assuming you’ve already done the worrying years past, that the worry doesn’t have to be now. So you’ve bought yourself freedom. You you used money to buy freedom.

Eric Brotman [00:23:51]:

Yes. No. that’s absolutely true. I I think if you were to look at my, you know, twenty five year old self, Right. That would not have been true. I was absolutely I had money fears and worries. I also was more interestingly, probably would have been higher on status at 25 because Of course. It was it it was important for me to feel like, Hey, I I I’ve arrived. Meanwhile, I hadn’t really arrived anywhere. I just didn’t know it yet. and today, status being my lowest, I really that doesn’t matter to me anymore. Now it’s about it is about freedom. It is about, financial independence, which is what we what we, you know, teach on show, and about retirement readiness.

Cara Macksoud [00:24:37]:

Right.

Eric Brotman [00:24:37]:

And what?

Cara Macksoud [00:24:37]:

And you and you showed up in giving. Right? And so

Eric Brotman [00:24:40]:

—

Cara Macksoud [00:24:41]:

Yeah. — I’m assuming If I had to go back to your twenty five year old self, I wanna saw a pop in status and probably less than giving one you most likely wouldn’t have felt you you you had to give to yourself. Right? The the drive wasn’t probably you may have had one card in giving. Remember, You didn’t go from no cards in carefree to 9 cards in carefree. Those 2 cards in carefree is all we needed to give you this lease on life to be able to shift away from a true I mean, think of traditional financial professionals or traditional financial planners practices, what it looks like. Right? Oftentimes, What you’ve chosen to do with your career, which is educate, look at a different business model, go at this in a different direction, That’s usually the traditional planner’s life, and I’m not knocking anyone, but it’s usually build back book of business. Get it to the point where you’re ready to, you know, transition. sell the book of business or find someone who’s gonna pay you that annuity type payment as they take over, and you can ride off into the sunset. And what you’ve chosen at this stage of life is to actually start a whole new business model. But to do that, you have to be financially secure in your stomach that you could still afford because you’re not willing to give up your lifestyle that you work so hard for at this point in life.

Eric Brotman [00:26:06]:

Alright. Guilty is charged. That’s fair. I like my lifestyle. I’d I I live a a wonderful, a wonder not care free, but, but pretty flex and pretty independent life. That’s true. now giving, it’s interesting. I I would always I would have expected to continue to be high on giving even then but it would have been giving of time and talent not treasury because I didn’t have treasury. So I, I think, I think the pendulum swings a little bit as you get older. When you’re young, you have time to here. You can roll up your sleeves. You can you can do those even if it’s whether it’s walkathons or it’s like guest bartending for some chair. Like, you can do any of those things. as you get a little —

Cara Macksoud [00:26:45]:

Did you do those things anyone that asked, or were you strategic in where you volunteered because you use the the stepping stones to be around the right people because that’s where we have to be careful that that’s not giving. That would have fell into status. Yeah. I don’t

Eric Brotman [00:27:01]:

I don’t think I don’t think I was that I I don’t think I was that, crafted at the time. No. I don’t think I was. I was involved in some organizations that were a lot of fun. but I don’t think I I really was thinking about too much other than the end user. I mean, I looked at some of the places where I volunteered, and I spent a lot of hours volunteering as a young professional. And Most of them created little or no financial type or even networking type game. They just created a lot of pleasure for me. today, I I actually still think that’s true. The difference is that the philanthropy that that I do that mostly is through what BFG is doing is around the things that really do relate to what we do. So things like financial literacy, things like like the Alzheimer’s association, like junior achievement, like things that that really impact and are things that we can that we can touch. Now we also do scholarships at local universities. And and I I think there’s probably some status around that. Like, let’s let’s be frank. It’s very, very cool to know that some kids are staying school because of us. It’s especially cool to know that that they know that we’re the ones who like, yeah. I get that. It’s true. I’m not gonna stop doing it because it’s it makes me feel good, but it’s not the only reason that that happens. so what else can you what else can you tell me? Because I I I wanna there there’s too much here to go through. But bottom line, Kara, I I’m as a financial advisor, you said I was gonna be very concerned with getting a perfect score. And I’m looking at this and thinking it is in fact a perfect score. Do I get a 100? Is this a work?

Cara Macksoud [00:28:32]:

No. That’s not how this works. And it’s not how it should work, right, because a 100, Eric, is is knowing that you’re right. And that would basically be saying and think about that. We’d be saying to the people that need our help that they’re not 100 And they’re wrong. Right? What we know is what we look for is how do we get your financial health to be at its prime. And different humans need different things. Some people choose to live in metropolitan cities. Some people choose to live in a Winnebago in the mountains of Wisconsin. Right? And so it’s what is it that you need for you to feel secure, safe, like you’re living a contented life, fulfilling life, and so that’s your perfect score. And so I would ask you Yeah. You know, and again, we’re we’re meeting at this stage. But what were the things in your life that you had set out for as goals or what was the outcome that you were looking for? Let’s say when you first entered finance as a profession.

Eric Brotman [00:29:40]:

I I can tell you, I could tell you to the to the to the decimal point, but I I won’t go quite that deep. But I will say in my twenties, my goal was to reach a certain income level by 30. It was not about how much I kept. It really didn’t even have anything to do with how much I spent It had everything to do with can I get my income to a certain level because I thought that would be all the money in the world that I’d ever need. I don’t know how often you hear that, but that seemed like a a number that was and and I’m pleased to say I did hit it at 30, which was very, very cool. It’s amazing. It’s amazing when you build that plan for yourself. You can hit So then in my thirties, the goal was less about myself and income and more about the organization because I had started a company at that point. And so the goal was at the time, the goal was to build our organization to a $100,000,000 organization. Right. And that was and that’s a a rule of thumb for financial advisors that sort of feels like a, hey. I’ve arrived. It’s 9 figures. We’re managing a $100,000,000. Right. And we, in fact, did hit that in my fortieth year. I think it was after my birthday, but it was really right on. And so when I looked at it again and you can also tell a lot about somebody by the way they spend their birthdays. Like, I remember my milestone birthdays also, and and that that sort of played a role because I look at these as new chapters. but my goal for 50, my goal for 50 was really to reinvent myself. it wasn’t numbers. It wasn’t math. It was I did something, an exercise that I called this is 50. And it was these are the things, and it was it was about health in lots of different ways. And some of it was financial, but most of it wasn’t. And it was it was really around thinking about what I wanted to do with my back 9 because let’s face it. you you know, like my daughter’s friends, say, Mister Promen, you’re not old. You’re middle aged, and that feels good. but you get to this certain point where I I I think it’s it’s less about money and more about legacy and more about you know, how you’re changing the world and the industry and how you’re supporting your family and how you’re making life great. And so I had a this is 50 plan, and I will confess that my fiftieth birthday coincided with COVID And so I punted and became a this is 51 plan because all plants were out the window during the pandemic. So this is 51 is a real thing for me. and as we’re having this conversation today, I’m not yet 52, and so I’m still very much working that plan. And it’s It’s a different kind of goal than I ever had before. It wasn’t quantifiable. It’s much more qualitative.

Cara Macksoud [00:32:25]:

Well, and that’s and that shows, right, in this in your assessment, but I wanna just go back to one thing you you had said. Right? And so, fortunately, for you, you saw the long game. Right? You said clear defined goals. Right? You had these moments And whether you pivoted away from them or whatnot, there was what I would call it, like, pillars right out in the ocean that at least as you were swimming, you weren’t swimming aimlessly. And I think you and I would both agree. Oftentimes, people will get the financial plan or save even if they’re saving at a very small name. Right? But a small amount, but they’re not there’s no, like, tangible thought process. around what am I gonna do when I get there? Or what is this even for? Right? And so then habits and behaviors creep on them because what what is the saying? Right? If you don’t make a plan for yourself, somebody else will make a plan for you.

Eric Brotman [00:33:36]:

Yes. But enough about marriage. So okay. Let’s we’re we’re running — Let’s not. We’re running out of time. Sorry. Wow. Look at the time. we’re running out of time for our show. I I would like Before we get to the the final few questions, just one thing that you can tell me about my money habitudes profile that you said what jumped off was the balance. But was there anything else that jumped off that you would, as my as my now therapist would say that I that I should think about seriously. Something it could be good or bad or sideways, but —

Cara Macksoud [00:34:13]:

No. I mean, I I I think being being very aware. So so the only thing, right, that you that I would say would be something that if I was working with you on a regular basis, I’d be checking in with you regularly because you only did have 13 cards in that that’s me pile. Anything lower than 10, we start to say, hey, This person can be really rigid. Like, they have they’ve got the few things that are that to me and everything else is kind of, you know, in these other territories. You have a decent number of cards in the sometimes pile, which means you clearly have the ability to we say the sometimes pile can either be flexibility or indecisiveness in your case based on where you are based on the conversation that we’re having. I’m imagining it’s more around flexibility. but I would be aware of the fact that that big that’s not me tile Right? If you’re defining all of those things as not you, really taking a hard look at them and saying, is that helping or hurting me as I’m continuing to grow because that’s where we see our financial biases. Right? If your dominant is in care free, meaning you’re not me pile is is really dominant carefree. Even though you do have those 2 carefree cards, if a client comes to you, and they’ve just inherited wealth and they’ve always been carefree because somebody else is always like, are you going to be line for security and planning? Because what you’re comfortable with. That’s what you know. And that’s gonna scare them because they’re so far on the other side of the spectrum. Right? And so just being more open minded to the fact that the people that are probably coming to seek your help, they don’t look anything like you. So can you put yourself in those shoes sometimes? Again, if you were just an individual that we were working with to get your money in order, we’d be having a different conversation. but in your profession, how are these attitudes and behaviors working for or against you when you’re trying to relate to others and say, hey. We’re building a plan that’s not just for the people that look like me and are able to forward think and plan ahead. As you mentioned, you had inflection points at the 30 year mark, the 40 year mark, 50 year mark. I can guarantee 90% of the clients that are walking through your door they don’t know what tomorrow looks like. Whether they have money or not, right, they haven’t visualized it.

Eric Brotman [00:36:41]:

So I have to ask you because it it it it is part of the fun of this show. Karen, I have to ask you what you wanna be when you grow up. And Knowing you as I do, you have a lot of growing up to do. So so what what would you like that to look like, and what would you like to be when you grow up?

Cara Macksoud [00:36:57]:

I really wanna be content. As my father says, you know, they tell little kids, like, pick up every rock. You don’t know what’s gonna be underneath, and my dad says you don’t have pickup every rock. You don’t need to know it’s underneath every rock. so I think when I grow up, I really just wanna be content being still. like just being okay with not having to accomplish something every single day. Okay. I know that sounds crazy, but for me, that that’s a real goal.

Eric Brotman [00:37:24]:

Like, just

Cara Macksoud [00:37:26]:

to be able to be okay with I just absorbed it all today.

Eric Brotman [00:37:31]:

Well, I that does not sound crazy to me. That sounds healthy to me, actually. So I I love I love that. And we need an extra credit assignment for our audience. Especially since especially since we’re not in session next year, we’re all graduating here a little bit. It has to be a great extra credit assignment, something that they can work on for a a good long time.

Cara Macksoud [00:37:51]:

Absolutely. So here’s here’s what I’m gonna tell everybody to go I want everybody to self assess. I want you to lay in bed tonight and just think about when you when you close your eyes and you see Benjamin or Washington or link, whoever bill you really like, what is your first association? that you make with that money. And once you see what that is, then go down that road with that money and see where it leads you. And if you get there and you’re like, oh, how did I get here? Then start back at square 1. and figure out how we’re gonna pave a different road. So, I mean, of course, you can go on and do our assessment. And, of course, you can find a financial counselor, coach, adviser to talk this all out with. but I would really just implore you as an individual to just think about where you see your association with money. And if it doesn’t end, if you keep going down that you know, brain thought and it doesn’t land in the place that gives you like a warm and good feeling, then we we gotta we gotta pave a new path.

Eric Brotman [00:39:03]:

I love that. Great extra credit assignment. Where can folks find out more about you, more about money attitudes, maybe take this assessment, or bring it to their organizations, their associations, their companies because that that really is part of the value here as well. Where can folks find you?

Cara Macksoud [00:39:18]:

Absolutely. So they can go to our website at moneyhabitudes.com. I shouldn’t, but I read every email that comes through or contact us now and find out more information. You can always reach out directly to me at cara@moneyhabitudes.com. You can find us on LinkedIn. We’re on all social media platforms. We do 40 conferences a year, so We’re everywhere. as I mentioned earlier, it’s a twenty year old company. So we’re a global brand and, you know, we service a lot of industries, but if you’re interested in bringing it to your organization or you think this could help the people you’re working with, reach out. We’ll do a demo. We’ll happily send you some free assessments, and you can work with it and see if you it.

Eric Brotman [00:40:01]:

Sounds great. And thank you. I hope our audience will do 2 things. 3 things. 1, the extra credit assignment to think about money while they’re in bed tonight. 2, to email you a lot since you read them all. I want your email to be absolutely blown up by this whole conversation. and thirdly, to explore this, do do this do this questionnaire, do this assessment. It it was it was interesting. It was, it was fun. It was easy. And, you know, it it gave me a lot to think about. And and I suspect since, Harrison, you mentioned that it changed. I suspect it’ll be something I wanna do again in 5 or 10 years too and just just take another peek. So thank you. Thank you for being here.

Cara Macksoud [00:40:38]:

It looks like. Yes. Thank you for having me, and I feel so honored to be on the season finale and just to be exploring you with all this food for thought to be

Eric Brotman [00:40:48]:

— Well, it’s good. It’s it’s good stuff, and I am pivoting. And, and and I’m graduating right now. So for all of you listening and watching, I I can’t thank you enough for making, don’t retire, graduate a part of your personal financial journey not only today, but for the past 5 years, it’s been an amazing ride. I’ve been blessed to meet unique and wonderful people who are changing the conversation about money and the definition of retirement. this may not be friends or Seinfeld with reunions ahead, but we’re not going out with a whimper like Game of Thrones did. We came out with Cara Macksoud, who is amazing and does great things. And I hope you’ll check her out. in the coming weeks, the new second edition of don’t retire graduate will be published I’m gonna be spending a lot of time and energy, teaching financial independence and retirement readiness to readers both online and on the road. We have online courses under development and are building a formal financial wellness program, which can be brought to companies around the US. for employees to learn the basics and to worry less about money so they can be better performers at work and happier people too. So I suspect our show will be back in the future. with a new format and more engaging guests, and hope you’ll come along for the ride once more. but for now, oh, and before I sign off, I have to thank the amazing people who helped make this show a success, our executive producer, Sara Lohse, who’s been phenomenal to work with, And the man behind the scenes, Russ Riba, who does an incredible job, not only with the audio visual, but just keeping me on task and making the show run. So Russ, thank you very, very much, and thank you for being here. It’s been a pleasure working with you. for now, This is your host, Eric Brotman signing off for the last time for now, and reminding you, don’t retire. Graduate.

Speaker C [00:42:43]:

Securities offered through Kestra Investment Services, LLC, Kestra IS, member, FINRA, SIPC, Investment Advisory Services offered through Advisory Services LLC, Kestra AS, an affiliate of Kestra IS, Kestra IS, or Kestra AS are not affiliated with Brotman Financial or any other entity discussed.