Cashing Out: Unrigging the Financial Game with Julien and Kiersten Saunders

[00:00:00] Eric Brotman: Welcome to Don’t Retire, graduate, the podcast that asks you what you want to be when you grow up so you can graduate into retirement with purpose and passion. I’m your host in valedictorian, Eric Brotman, and I have not won, but two special guests today. Uh, Julian and Kirsten Saunders are authors. Of cashing out Win the Wealth Game by Walking Away Under portfolio books and imprint of Penguin Random House, they’re also creative voices behind the blog, rich and regular.com hosts and pod and producers of the award-winning video series, money On the Table and Hosts of the Rich and Regular podcast, Julian.
Kirsten, welcome to Don’t Retire, graduate. Hey, how are you? Thank you. I’m great. I, I, I want you to know, and I’m, I’m, you know, I don’t get starstruck that much, but I want everyone to know. True as true can be that the first time I met you all, you were keynote speakers at FinCon a couple years ago, and I said, that was awesome.
I need to know them and we need to talk on the show. So, [00:01:00] um, first and foremost, you crushed it in front of a big room. Um, let’s talk a little bit about, uh, about the two of you, how you got started in in fire, how you got started in, in podcasting, and then we’re gonna t dive in and talk about the book and the audience for the book quite a bit.
[00:01:17] Julien Saunders: Sure. Uh, so our story, she tells actually a more colorful, uh, version, um, but I treat myself better in my version of the story. So I’ll, I’ll lead. But basically our story, uh, began almost a little over 10 years ago. We met. At work, we were starting our jobs, uh, new jobs. You know, that big job that you get that’s mm-hmm.
Supposed to change your life. We were both starting that job, working on the same team, uh, and we met, uh, things sort of took off pretty quickly. We decided why not take a vacation, uh, three months into our relationship? In our romance. Um, but we had not thought through all of the details around, well, you know, are we, well, we agreed that we were gonna split it down the middle, [00:02:00] but after that it was like, all right, what changes after that?
None of that. We would just head over heels, uh, in love with each other. And, um, unfortunately that led to a conversation around, well, how are you paying for, well, how am I paying for. This was when we got back. When we got back. Yeah. And I
[00:02:13] Eric Brotman: was Oh, after you had had the fun, then you had to pay back. After We had
[00:02:16] Julien Saunders: had the fun.
After we had all the fun, I came back and, and my typical routine was, all right, that was fun. Now back to reality. Let’s get back to cooking at home and, and making sure that we make up for all the money that we spend while we were on vacation. And she actually wanted to celebrate the vacation, which was a way of thinking I’d never, I wanted to
[00:02:36] Kiersten Saunders: extend.
Yeah. She wanted the vacation. Keep the party
[00:02:38] Julien Saunders: going. Keep the party going. And so that led to a very. Interesting revelation that we thought about money and treated very different. Um, which then led to, quite honestly, both of us looking inwards and saying, well, I feel very strongly about how I feel, and which is that we should go ahead and pay off this debt and move forward.
And she was like, I have no [00:03:00] interest in doing that. And so we ended up, uh, breaking up pretty quickly, um, after that, after some sharp words were thrown from me in her direction. I will admit to that. Ooh. Um, but, but long story short,
[00:03:13] Eric Brotman: this is, this is juicy. I like this. All right.
[00:03:17] Julien Saunders: But it was one of the best things that could have ever happened to us because what it did was it forced us to have an uncomfortable conversation about who we were, our beliefs, how we thought about money, what our visions and plans for our futures were very, very early on.
And we then came to learn that most people don’t have that privilege. They in more. More than not kick the can down the road, avoid all those conversations until they have a child, until they’re buy home, and then things sort of fall apart. Then that’s just the unfortunate reality of where we live. And so that’s pretty much how we started and we figured the best way to help.
More people not fall into the trap, is to be a little bit more transparent about some of the other uncomfortable and interesting, um, [00:04:00] sort of experiences with money that we’ve had along the way. And so that’s where the blog and all of the other things that we create, uh, came from. All
[00:04:08] Eric Brotman: right. So you do realize this, it lends itself to two follow up questions, and I’m gonna double up on you, but I’m also gonna ask Kirsten, number one, where was this trip that was impactful enough to break you up?
And two, what really happened?
[00:04:21] Kiersten Saunders: So the trip was to Panama. Like Panama, the country not. It was an international trip. It was 10 days. So it was a long time. And when I got back, I like, if relationships were a video game, I felt like I had leveled up. Like I had just survived a vacation with him. Like we had so much fun.
It was a resort. Cocktails were flowing. And so when he got back talking about peanut butter and jelly and Ramas, Ramen so he could pay off the credit card bill. I was like, what are you talking about? Like, we only go up from here. And so as we’re explaining this, and at the time we were making the same amount of money cuz we were on the same [00:05:00] team.
So he was like, how are you paying for this? Like, I think he was hoping to find out that I was like an heir or an a princess of some sort. And I was like, aren’t aren’t you cards? In my mind, yes. He, he
[00:05:13] Eric Brotman: thinks of you as a princess though. He does not necessarily think of you as an heir. All right. So Panama’s a place to avoid for all, all you young couples out there that can break you up.
Don’t go to Panama. Uh, and, and, you know, these are conversations that couples do need to have. And, you know, for you guys to be together 12 weeks and then go away for 10 days is bold. That’s, that’s a bold thing. I will tell you that the woman I married our first date was a black tie fundraiser. Wow. And our second date was a wedding.
That is not how this is supposed to work. Those broke us up immediately. It took us almost 10 months to reconvene. Yeah. So we, we are kindred spirits in that way because boy did that go wrong fast. Like, let’s just get coffee and get to know
[00:05:57] Julien Saunders: each other a little bit. Right, right.
[00:05:58] Kiersten Saunders: Low stakes dating. [00:06:00]
[00:06:00] Eric Brotman: So I, I have, I have your book, I have read it.
I have l. Really enjoyed it. There’s a lot of wisdom in it. Um, and, and I think it’s actually a good read for anybody. Um, but, but you wrote this with a very specific audience in mind. You wrote this for the black community primarily. And while there’s plenty of, uh, of information here that’s, that’s truly universally important, um, I, I think it’s important that we talk about why, why that, uh, was, was part of the focus of your project.
[00:06:30] Julien Saunders: Yeah, so there are several reasons. Um, you know, after our breakup and even after launching our blog, one of the other reasons why we decided to do it was because we realized that. After we’d learned so much information, right? Like after this sort of conflict, you know, sort of came full circle and we healed from it, and we started really learning and collaborating and paying off debts together and investing and doing all these things.
We started sharing this stuff, right? This is what you do. You share what you’ve learned with the people that mattered [00:07:00] to you the most. And it felt as if it was just going in one area and out the other, like people just could care less. And we’d see these articles and we’d see these stories and we’d recommend these books and it just didn’t seem to work.
And we were like, wow, do people not think that financial literacy is important? Do they not find investing or personal finances? Like do they just not care? And we knew that that wasn’t the case because we talk about money all the time. We talk about work all the time. But what we did realize, this is when we started to look at this.
Through our professional lens because we do have professional sales and marketing backgrounds, whereas that people that we were trying to reach did not see themselves in the stories or in the profiles or in the books or the pages that they were told we were. Sort of imagining ourselves in these roles, but we couldn’t actually see ourselves.
And so when we started thinking about it from that lens, it was like, oh, well this is actually a really interesting challenge. Like, how do we take the same information but make it. Really, [00:08:00] really relevant to a target audience, which is marketing one-on-one, right? Yeah. Yeah. But this just had higher stakes because we were really concerned like, wow, if so many of us are out here sort of aimlessly barreling through our careers, or aimlessly giving money away, um, and aimlessly like just not saving enough or not preparing for future.
Uh, adjustments in our life or any of these things, like there are some real consequences to that. And so we said, all right, well, let’s figure out a way that we can lure, quite honestly people into this message, make it not feel so preachy. Because part of what we were doing was saying, well, what is out there?
And that’s great. Some of these things are really, really good at attracting this message to a certain group of people. But there was still a lot of people who were not being reached, and we took it upon ourselves to do what we could to try to impact
[00:08:50] Eric Brotman: them. Well, I, I trust that your message has reached a lot of people because I know your podcast is, is, uh, well listened to, and I know your book is [00:09:00] selling well, certainly selling better than mine, so I could take some marketing tips for you from you.
Um, I think you’re talking about a, some somewhat of an underserved community from a financial standpoint. And you know, in the book you talk about the game being rigged, and that’s true about a lot of things in finance, just in general. Mm-hmm. Um, but in this particular case, I, I, I took that to mean, um, that some of the things, some of the messaging, some of the paths that are out there may not feel open to everybody.
Yeah. Is, is that a fair assessment of what you were trying to accomplish there?
[00:09:34] Kiersten Saunders: Yeah, I mean I think that’s a fair assessment, especially when you look at the historical nature of our financial systems. Even something like time, which is, you know, if you’re in investing, that’s our magic ingredient. We always harp on time, time in the market, and there are.
Certain assets that black Americans were not allowed to participate in at the same time as white Americans. And then when you go further than that, and you look at wages, and you look at the wage gap and you [00:10:00] realize who’s on the, on the, uh, wrong end of that gap, it’s, it’s us, it’s people of color, it’s people with marginalized identities.
And so there are certain barriers that we encounter that. Feel impossible or out of reach or not For me, just at this moment and what we’re trying to tell people is that there, there are barriers, but there’s also a way to get over them.
[00:10:23] Eric Brotman: So, so I’ve, now, I’m gonna date myself. I, I’ve now been in the personal finance space for almost 30 years.
Not quite. Next year is 30. Um, and one thing that’s true about our business, our industry as professionals, is it is it is male, it is white, um, and it is old. I mean, you know, and I, I’m, I’m at least two of those three things, but, but I’m trying not to be all three at the same time. Um, at, at any, I wanna ask this two.
You’re talking No, no. Please, please. Look. Any two you want me to be for this conversation. The, the, the reality [00:11:00] reality is that we do a lot of hiring. We hire a lot of young people right outta college, and we teach them. We, we mentor them. They have a, a, um, It, it’s like an apprenticeship almost to learn for a five year period.
And when we go to these to try and attract students. The students who come to those presentations look a whole lot like other than being younger, they look a whole lot like the industry already, and we’ve hired a number of young black students outta school who are crushing it with us and doing a great job.
And I asked them, why aren’t more of your peers even looking at this career? And, and, uh, one of ’em told me, and it, it was eye-opening to me. He said, you know, I tried to get some of my friends and classmates and teammates to come to this. And they’re all like, no, that’s not for us. And he didn’t understand, but, but he did understand.
I didn’t understand why that would be and how that would persist. So I think it’s sometimes helpful to get advice from people with whom you identify a little more closely. And that [00:12:00] doesn’t mean that you can’t give great advice to anyone with a pulse, and I can’t as well. It just means that sometimes hearing it from someone with whom you have some, some, uh, some shared experience can be more impactful.
And so I, I think you’ve accomplished that with this book. Um, How, how else do you think this game is rigged? I mean, certainly from a time standpoint, you’re absolutely right. Um, is the wage gap still something that, that is just undeniably a fact? Or is that, because I know I don’t see it here and I know we don’t do it here, but apparently it’s still there.
It still happens.
[00:12:32] Julien Saunders: Yeah. And it’s, it’s, it’s a really, really sad occurrence. It is stubborn. It is prevalent and, you know, and we. Think about this stuff quite often. Um, and, and I always feel like I have to give a bit of a trigger warning, right? Because if you start talking about American history and all of these things that intersect with the work that we do, it’s not just about money.
It’s about that at the intersection of work and race. Obviously the income gap, uh, is really sort of [00:13:00] a, a key topic that bubbles up to the, to the top. Um, but I would encourage people to think just for a second about. Slavery and we all know that that is like, even when you hear that word, it’s like just, oh my gosh.
Tell me we’re not gonna go there. Right? I’m not gonna spend too much time there. We all know what happened, and I think most people know that it was one of the worst periods of American history. I want you to skip past that. To the period shortly thereafter, which was a period called Sharecropping. Right?
And it’s almost like, I wanna make a bad joke here, but like a lighter version of it, which is that I’m going to allow black people to work our land in exchange for just enough or just jazzed enough for survival, right? And so relative to where they had come from, that seemed like acceptable, and in fact, that was ideal.
Fun fact, Kirsten’s grandmother. Was a sharecropper, right? She grew up, wow. Just outside of Houston, Texas. She was a [00:14:00] sharecropper. We interviewed her a couple of years ago and, and the video was still live on our YouTube channel and she. Loved it. She loved it. She took great pride in those experiences. The same way where like after school, you look forward to going to play basketball with your friends.
She looked forward to working because that’s when she got to hang out with some of her friends, right? And so it’s a really time that she don’t realize has devastating financial consequences until 40 or 50 years later. And so when you fast forward to today and you think about. Why we accept such a horrible practice, like discriminating against people and paying them less for the same work.
Don’t ask yourself that. Don’t ask your peers that. Ask people who experienced the older version of pay discrimination and let them tell those stories, and then I think it’ll help you put sort of what we generally accept as horrible practice into perspective. It happens [00:15:00] right now it’s perfectly legal.
Much like slavery was legal for hundreds of years, right? It sounds insane, but that’s the world that we live in. We live in a version of that world today, and so that’s what we’re sort of asking people to look at and to confront the uncomfortable and grim reality of that and the role that it plays in perpetuating wealth inequality over generations.
[00:15:24] Eric Brotman: It’s it, you know, I’m naive enough. To walk into a conversation like this and say, I, I think we’re making progress in lots of ways. We’re making progress, but the way you’ve just painted that makes me feel like we’re doing less bad. Is that, is that, I mean, I mean really, like, it’s not as bad as it was, which is progress.
Yeah. In a perverse kind of way. It’s progress, but it’s still not so good. Not enough. I mean, exactly. There’s a lot more work and it sounds like there’s a lot more work to be done. Uh, and you know, you bring that up in a conversation and you’re right, people sort of, the, the hair on their arm stands up and you’re like, uhoh, where, you know, what are we gonna [00:16:00] talk about?
But the reality is you can’t have a conversation about this without. Without the historical context. So it, it totally makes sense. Um, yeah, I wanna dig in if I can to some of the, I’m gonna call it wisdom because it is some of the wisdom in your book. And there are four things that I wrote down that I think are my favorite four things in the book.
I am not gonna ask you to guess what they are. That’s totally unfair, but I am gonna throw ’em out there. And so this will be like the rapid fire round where I want to hear a little bit about this cuz it’s really good stuff. And the first is, choose your boss wisely. Yeah, that’s profound. Talk a little bit about that.
I, I love that.
[00:16:39] Kiersten Saunders: Yeah. You know, there’s that saying that people don’t leave jobs, they leave bosses. And what we realize, especially as a person of color, is that your boss can really make or break your career path. Oh yeah. In a world where, uh, your bosses sign off, your annual reviews, their advocacy, the rooms that they speak your name in matter, it’s really important that we [00:17:00] look beyond just a job description and start to think about what the everyday conversations are.
How you’re supported. Whether your boss sees you and encourages you to be you, be authentic. And so choose your boss with wisely is kind of a spin on the old advice of like, just pick a good job. It’s like, no, pick a good boss and if you realize that you don’t have a good boss, then that’s also a sign to start looking or at least start exploring other places in an organization that you can go.
[00:17:27] Eric Brotman: When you all started, you were in the same department for the same company We were working together. And, you know, interoffice romance, there’s, there’s pros and cons to that. Generally it’s frowned upon, but I’m not here to preach or anything. I’m glad it worked out. Um, tell me about your first boss. I mean, I remember my first boss, real boss.
You’re not for school vividly. Tell me about your first boss. You had the same boss. No,
[00:17:50] Kiersten Saunders: we actually didn’t, we had two different
[00:17:51] Julien Saunders: bosses. Yeah, they were, it was, it was like a two-headed monster. Right. So we had different regions, um, that led the team and it was like a, [00:18:00] a dual thing. Right. It was like, you think about it like sports, that was like an eastern region and a western region basically.
Um, but yeah, we had. Two bosses, but they all, we all mapped up to the same vice president of the organization. Um, but they were very similar. They were both cast with like, sort of leading both teams or the team, um, in the same direction, but they took slightly different approaches because they were different people.
Uh, and I actually ended up working for both of them. You know, just because I got traded to continue to continue with the sports metaphor, I got traded from one to the other,
[00:18:32] Eric Brotman: but I was still working. Now why do I think you lobbied for that trade based on this relationship? You’re like, wow, there’s an opening on that side of the, and I wanna come to the Easter conference cuz there’s a, there’s a teammate I’d really like to
[00:18:44] Julien Saunders: play with.
It was actually the opposite. Like I would, I tried very hard not to work with Kirsten because it, I just knew that it was a bit of a distraction. Very focused. I’m a very focused person, so I tried my best not to do that. Um, and, but we still ended up [00:19:00] traveling and having fun. Fun. Uh, whenever
[00:19:01] Eric Brotman: had an opportunity.
Were you traded for decent draft picks or was this like a, like a It was, was this like, it was, I was, okay. Okay. So this wasn’t salary. I got a better reason.
[00:19:12] Julien Saunders: Yeah. I got a better reason. Yeah. So, you know, it was, it was, it was a fun time. Well,
[00:19:17] Eric Brotman: my, my first boss, what? Okay, so before we go there, your, your bosses, um, were they advocates for you?
Did they help you, um, and support you and let you be you?
[00:19:29] Kiersten Saunders: Yes, I have had a string of. Great bosses, like ever since even my first job outta high school. Mm-hmm. Like I’ve just, mm-hmm. I’ve hit the lottery on great bosses and yeah. I’ve been able to distill this, the traits that they share and one of them is just advocating, one of them is, you know, when they are giving even coaching advice, they might say, this is how I would say it now.
You put it in your words and I’d get to practice and they’d give honest feedback and they wouldn’t try to. Diminish what I was feeling. Even if that was the [00:20:00] culture at the time, they would just explain like, that is the culture and here’s a way that you can acknowledge the way that you feel without creating a riff within the, within the organization.
So yeah, I, my bosses were all. Amazing.
[00:20:13] Julien Saunders: Yeah, I’ve had a bag.
[00:20:15] Eric Brotman: Wait, wait, wait a sec. If, if, if all your bosses were amazing, uh, that makes you the common denominator, is it possible that the bosses were amazing cuz you did such a great job that they had no choice but to be amazing? I mean, could, could you take some responsibility for
[00:20:31] Kiersten Saunders: that?
Everybody definitely played a role, but like all good things, they eventually stopped being amazing, which is why I left. Okay.
[00:20:38] Eric Brotman: Well, you, you do know that, oh, you were breaking up a little bit. I, you, you do know that when teams win, it’s great players and when they lose, it’s lousy coaching. So it sometimes it’s tough to be the boss.
I, I assume you’re the boss of, of, of yourselves and each other too. Well, she is, anyway. And, and so we understand how that works. The, [00:21:00] the next thing in the book I want to go to is, is something that, that, you know, I’ve been preaching and it, I have a chapter in my book dedicated to, and it’s Pay Yourself first.
And it’s something I, I think it is a personal finance. It’s a financial literacy 1 0 1. Concept. How do you, how do you get folks to, to see that? What is the the magic behind Pay yourself first.
[00:21:24] Julien Saunders: Well, I think it’s, it’s reframing it as a, as incredible act of courage. We have a chapter in our book where that really, uh, at least I like to think that it does, is, is it helps people, uh, specifically the people that we’re reaching out to not overthink investing and to realize that part of the reason why they may not necessarily be investing as often or as.
Um, consistently as we think they should, it actually has more to do with them not having the courage. Right. There’s, and, and if you think about it, right, like to invest is to say, I’m willing to take portion come that I’ve [00:22:00] worked so hard to. To, to create and not put it to use today because I had faith in my ability to recreate that income for the foreseeable future.
And I think so many people for a variety of reasons, whether it’s trauma, whether it’s they’ve got a really long list of bills that they need to pay or they’re anticipating future debts or some other sort of issue in their life, they are. Less willing to part ways and make long-term decisions with the income that they’re creating today.
And so what we’re really asking them to do is say, yeah, like, you know, let’s acknowledge that fear. And what we’re asking you to do is to tap into like micro. Doses of courage, right? I’m not asking you to jump in front of a, a train. I’m not asking you to save, you know, uh, an animal out of a tree. But I am asking you to trust that you are as smart as you describe yourself on LinkedIn, and I believe that you have the ability to create future income.
So you [00:23:00] should therefore have the similar level of courage and confidence that if you part ways with this income for the betterment of your future through the active investing, that it’ll be okay that you won’t need it. For, you know, 30 years. I think that’s still one of the prevailing issues that people have.
Specifically when it relates to things like tax, uh, advantaged accounts. It’s like, oh my gosh, I’m putting it somewhere and I can’t touch it. And that language mm-hmm. Seems very scary to them because, you know mm-hmm. They, it sort of works against this anticipated sense of urgency that they think they’re gonna be dealing with sooner rather than later.
[00:23:32] Kiersten Saunders: love that. That’s the nice version cuz Julian’s from Brooklyn. And so typically he, he will pull up their LinkedIn page and be like, I thought you were a thought leader who produces brilliant results. Who? And he calls ’em out on all these traits. And I, it’s like paying yourself ver first is like a version of this.
Why are you all, well, this very simple thing.
[00:23:52] Eric Brotman: Have you been on my LinkedIn page? Cause I got, you know, now I’m, now I’m afraid I have to block you on social media, so that’s fine. I can do that. [00:24:00] Alright, right now, this next thing, this next thing I have never heard before. So, um, choosing your boss, paying yourself first.
I, I’ve heard that there’s some conventional wisdom to it, but this I have never heard before and I’m not pointing this question at either one of you cuz I know better. But you said to think of investing as financial hygiene. And you liken putting money in your 401k to brushing your teeth, which is, I’ve never heard that before.
So not that I want to get into any of your personal hygiene habits whatsoever. I’m not sharing mine, but, but how did you come up with that? Like that is uniquely interesting to me.
[00:24:37] Kiersten Saunders: It’s a combination of both of us. I remember when I was little, right about my son’s age, he’s a kindergartner. I used to try to get out of brushing my teeth cuz I just would wanna do other things.
I’d wanna go to bed or start playing. And I would ask my dad, do I have to brush my teeth? And his response was always, Well, just the ones you wanna keep, like it just seems, you put it right back on me. Uhhuh Uhhuh. And so the same is [00:25:00] true for financial hygiene, where it’s like, it’s the version of this is on you.
You know, retirement is one of the few things that you cannot leverage through. Mm-hmm. Federal loans or, you know, some sort of program like it’s on you to save for a world where you’re not. Producing in the traditional way. And so comparing it to hygiene, comparing it to the little habits that you really don’t think about on a day-to-day basis, you just know that you should do them because they take care of this.
Body that we’re in this, this, mm-hmm. You know, physical space that we occupy. That’s, it felt like a very natural metaphor for me.
[00:25:35] Julien Saunders: I also have very clear memories of a horrific, uh, deep cleaning that brought me to tears and. In my mind, I at least think that there are a lot of people that when they hear those two words deep cleaning, they just become deeply fearful.
It’s like, oh yeah. Oh no, I do not want to go through that again. And so, you know, if, if brushing your teeth two times a day is, [00:26:00] you know, is the sort of automatic muscle memory that you do to avoid that pain, then that’s certainly something that we were interested in tapping into. So there was a little bit of that in there as well.
But to Kirsten’s point, it was really just about. Building the habit and, and the fact that it, it’s non-negotiable. I’d like to think it’s non-negotiable. You don’t, very few people just jump up out of bed and go straight to work having not brushed their teeth right. It’s a muscle memory. Thank you. Do it every single day.
Um, but, uh, Think at least rinse your mouth back. You brush your teeth.
[00:26:32] Eric Brotman: Oh man. So that’s what we were tapping into the thought of having our entire office full of folks. Having not brushed your teeth this morning has me wanna stay in this little studio. I’m good. I’m not going back out there just in case.
And, and by the way, having met you in person, Your dad must have been pretty smart, cuz to the best of my knowledge, you do have a full set of teeth for the record. I do. So you did keep them, you, you, it seems like you both do and, and you don’t have to tell me if they’re not real. They look great. Um, alright, so, [00:27:00] so my fourth, my fourth piece of this, um, from the book, one of my favorite sections.
You do a piece that is really looking forward and almost kind of a pay it forward, give it, giving it back kind of thing. But you say become a connector. Hmm. And I think one of the things that separates, that separates not only a, a good mentor or good boss or good coach, we’re just a, a a professional who’s upwardly mobile from those who aren’t is the ability to connect different people, meet different people, and, and say, Hey, you know, person A and person B need to get together and everybody’s gonna win on this deal.
I think connecting people is an insanely valuable skill, and not everyone thinks of it that way. How this doesn’t strike me as personal finance as much as it does, just general wisdom. How do you tie that to the financial conversation and how did you come up with that? Cuz I, I really like it. No, I’m pretty sure you wrote that.
Alright, so neither of you actually came up with that. We’ve [00:28:00] established this now. She wrote that.
[00:28:02] Julien Saunders: She wrote, well, I think she’s blanking on her story.
[00:28:05] Eric Brotman: I know.
[00:28:06] Kiersten Saunders: Alright. I’m like, oh, I said that. No, I’m just kidding. It’s a value that I just wrote. Wait a minute. Let me,
[00:28:11] Eric Brotman: let me, let me just, I, it, it, it, it is on page 224.
You should remember it’s right at the top of page 2 24. You wanna read it? No, please don’t. It’s alright. Please don’t. No, I, I, I do think there’s, yeah, please.
[00:28:27] Kiersten Saunders: It’s a skill and a trait that I have long valued and prioritized in my life. We believe that community is the secret to everything, and I’m not just talking about like the internet version of community where it’s just a bunch of followers in a room.
I’m talking about like, Actual community where you could go and borrow a cup of sugar or an egg or tell somebody that you have a pain in your left hip and they have a world for like, that type of community is what makes a democracy strong. It’s what makes individuals be able to retire [00:29:00] comfortably. And so the role that people need to learn how to play is to not just like consume.
Community, but to also be a part and feed it and connect people. I think all of us have a unique network, a unique gift, a unique way of looking at things. But some of us are too scared or too, um, apprehensive to share that. And so this idea of encouraging people to share what they learn is the. Thing that keeps the fire community and other communities of practice alive, it’s the thing that gives us new information.
You can’t just go to the first page of Google and assume that that’s good information anymore, unfortunately. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So like this idea that, you know, humans should still connect with humans. I just feel like it’s a fundamental, it’s a fundamental way of, of being.
[00:29:46] Eric Brotman: I know that was a, when we talk about No, well, but when we talk about telling your personal story, you, you did a, a really good job in the book of telling your story, and, and that story included some mind numbing debt.
I mean, for, for [00:30:00] you to get even back to zero. Forget wealth building for you to even get back to par. Was an enormous lift. Tell Yeah, tell, tell me about that. I, I don’t need to know how it happened because I know how the lady traveled and what she liked to do, but, but in terms of, in terms of how to get out of that.
Like, you talk about some different strategies, but the number was just unbelievable.
[00:30:23] Julien Saunders: Yeah. You know, I, I liken it to just waking up every single day with an ax and chopping away at a Sequoia tree. Right. It’s like, you know, it’s not gonna be an afternoon, right? It’s gonna take some time. You know what’s possible, you know, may switch up axes to sharpen the axes that you have, but if you’re committed to it, you know that it’s possible.
And I think that’s the same way that we approached, uh, paying off our debt. Uh, we also wanted to be mindful of our own habits. To your point, it wasn’t just Kirsten. I mean, we both spend money, right? And so when we would get that direct deposit on [00:31:00] Thursday, we had a plan to get it out of there first thing Friday morning, because we know that if it lingers over the weekend, you’re gonna find some reason, some itch to scratch, um, or some problem to solve.
And so if you’re committed to the freedom that you believe comes with. Paying off that debt, or in this case, or the, to fulfill the metaphor, chopping down that tree. You really, really just focus on that. And you do it every single day. And after a while it becomes, uh, muscle memory as well. You feel stronger, you feel motivated.
And so that’s what it was. It was a matter of saying, we’re gonna go out. But we’re gonna have drinks before we go and we’re not gonna have dessert. Um, we’re going to commit to living small. Um, and we’re gonna say, Hey, when we do get an itch to go somewhere, we’ll go take a little road trip. Right? We’ll, you know, we live in Atlanta so we can conveniently get to a number of different places, whether it’s a road trip or even just having the convenience of the airport.
Let’s have [00:32:00] flash the itch that way, but we’re not gonna buy up. Yet into the big house because we know just how much of a drain on our cash flow that owning a larger home can have. We’re gonna commit to cooking at home. We’re gonna commit to, uh, getting creative with the clothes that we already have, as opposed to buying more and more clothes.
We’re gonna let this car work until it, you know, leaves us stuck. I mean, it took us having a child for a couple of years, air conditioning, radio, all. It was the opposite of sexy, even though we could afford to buy up, but it was just a dogged commitment to paying down that debt, um, and putting ourselves in a position to, to upgrade with pride, right?
Instead of upgrading with. Angst. I think a lot of people buy the home just because that’s what their parents did. You know, that’s what you’re supposed to do. You buy the home that you’re supposed to grow into, and all of those things. And we really just wanted to make sure that when we did it, we were in a position that we could afford it and that it wouldn’t become a source of stress for us.
That it would actually be [00:33:00] a source of joy. And so it was all the things, all the things that you read about online, we probably did to help pay down that debt. Um, and we were able to do it, um, over a stretch of five years. It was about $200,000.
[00:33:12] Eric Brotman: Yeah, that’s, that’s, I mean, that’s like having a house you can’t live in that.
You’ve already paid for that. You now have finance a lot of it at probably 18 or 19 or 20% too, which is unreal. So, I, I’m, I’m, I’m sorry to say we are almost out of time cuz I, I really could do this all day, but I, I gotta ask you. I I have to ask you the important question, um, and because there’s two of you, it’s okay to have two different answers, though I hope they harmonize, uh, a little bit.
And that is what do you want to be when you grow up?
[00:33:43] Kiersten Saunders: I wanna be a generous storyteller.
[00:33:48] Julien Saunders: Hmm. Okay.
[00:33:49] Eric Brotman: Mine is, you’re already, you’re already a generous storyteller, by the way. Oh,
[00:33:53] Julien Saunders: thank you. Yeah. I, I wanna be a, a filmmaker that I aspire to, uh, creating films [00:34:00] that, uh, that, that shape the culture in some way. So that’s, that’s my hope.
Excellent.
[00:34:05] Eric Brotman: Mad. No, I, I’m, I’m, you know, I’m, I’m not one to gamble because I’m in personal finance, but my money’s on you. I think you guys are gonna do that.
[00:34:13] Julien Saunders: That’s
[00:34:13] Eric Brotman: good stuff. Um, I need an extra credit assignment from you and it can’t be as simple as buy this book, which I hope people will, we’ll talk about how to get that.
Um, but I need an extra credit assignment and you guys can decide whether to give one or two. It’s, it’s extra, extra credit if you give two. But what is the one thing that people who just spent half an hour with us. Can, can walk away with, or, or go do what is an actionable item. Um, that, that anybody can just go grab a hold of.
[00:34:42] Kiersten Saunders: I would say rewatch the first movie that really made you think differently about money. And so for some people that may be the big short. For some people it may be, you know, nine 11 or another, you know, money movie. I can’t think of any right now, but I say go back and [00:35:00] watch a movie that reminded you or taught you a lesson about money and then discuss it with somebody in your life.
[00:35:07] Julien Saunders: Trading Places is coming to mind.
[00:35:08] Kiersten Saunders: Uh, yeah, that’s what I was trying to think of. Trading Places.
[00:35:12] Eric Brotman: I love that movie. $1. That is a great movie. $1. Yeah. There’s still some t-shirts out there. That’s it. Is bacon. Bacon, which you might find today. Bacon, lettuce and tomato sandwich. There’s some great lines in that movie.
I love that movie. Alright, well this was fun. How can folks who want to, who want to catch rich and regular or want to know about money on the table or who wanna read your book, what, how can folks follow you, can get in
[00:35:37] Julien Saunders: touch with you? Yeah, you can check us out. We’re at Rich and regular.com. Uh, we are on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, uh, and YouTube.
We create a podcast videos. Pretty much we’re already making Kirsten’s adult dreams come true, uh, by us about money with the hopes that inspires more people to have better conversations about [00:36:00] money. So that’s what we do.
[00:36:01] Eric Brotman: Well, this has been fun. I hope I’ll be seeing you at FinCon in, uh, in New Orleans later this year.
Um, and if you’ll, you’re, if you’re, well, I, I look forward to spending some time with you and, uh, and, uh, to grabbing an adult beverage at some point as well. So this was fun. Thank you for being on the show. I really enjoyed it. Thank you you for having us. I’d like to thank all of you for listening and watching today.
We’d love to hear from you, so please send us a message or leave us comments at don’t retire graduate.com or on social media. If you enjoy the show, don’t keep us a secret. Share us with your friends and family so they can join you on your journey to financial freedom and please leave us ratings and reviews.
They are priceless to us. We’ll be back next week with another installment of Office Hours. And in two weeks with another engaging guest, or maybe like today, two guests. For now, this is your host, Eric Brotman, reminding you don’t retire. Graduate. Don’t retire. Graduate is part of the Evergreen podcast network[00:37:00]
[00:37:01] Narrator: Securities offered through Ketra Investment Services. L L c Ketra, I s member. Vera, S I P C, investment advisory services offered through Ketra Advisory Services, L L C Ketra A s an affiliate of Ketra is, Ketra is, or Ketra as are not affiliated with Brotman Financial or any other entity discussed.