Season 4, Episode 14 Financial Feminism: Looking at the Big Picture of Gender Equality

[00:00:00] Eric Brotman: Welcome to Don’t Retire… Graduate!: the podcast that teaches you how to advance into retirement rather than retreating. I’m your host and valedictorian Eric Brotman. And we have a remarkable and incredible guest today, not to tier up to make this difficult. But Kara Perez is with us. She’s the founder of Bravely Go, a feminist financial education company.

I met Kara when we were in Austin at the FinCon conference in 2021. She’s the winner of the 2019 Plutus award for best podcast for women. And she was a speaker at the conference and had a, a really amazing experience to watch where all of the slides and all of the technology really went wrong and she rolled with it like a true pro. So I’m going to tease her a little today, cause I haven’t forgotten that. But Kara, welcome to the show.

[00:00:48] Kara Perez: Thank you so much for having me.

[00:00:50] Eric Brotman: Yes, no, you rolled with that beautifully. I mean, there are some speakers who would have literally wanted to curl up in a ball and quit and you just sort of said really, really?

So congratulations for rolling with the technical difficulties in ways that some of us maybe would be less adroit at doing. Tell us about you. I looked everywhere I could to find a definition for financial feminist and I didn’t really find a definitive one. I certainly know what financial is and I think I know what feminist is, but I, but I have not put the two together in a way that, that you have. And so I’m hoping you can share a little bit about you and help us define that at the onset.

[00:01:31] Kara Perez: Yeah, well, so this is also good for me to, to hear, because I do have a blog post entitled “what is a financial feminist?” And it’s good to know my SEO isn’t working very well. So

[00:01:43] Eric Brotman: yes, well apparently, apparently my, my my Chrome didn’t pick up your, your stuff for whatever reason so that’s…

[00:01:50] Kara Perez: I don’t know. I’ll have to go back. I’ll have to check that out. So it’s a great question though, because the concept of financial feminism is on the one hand kind of new, it’s a newer phrase. And on the other hand, it is a idea built off of the decades of the feminist movement that comes before it.

Right? So essentially to boil it down into a little sound bite, it’s the idea that women and non-binary folks should have the same financial and economic power as men. And so that ties into some pragmatic issues like the wage gap, like financial feminists believe that women should be paid equally to men.

It ties into the idea that often women are charged higher interest rates on debt because we are seen as like more likely to default, which is not the case at all and data backs that up. So like interest rates should be equal. So it’s things like that.

[00:02:50] Eric Brotman: It’s it’s interesting because first of all, I can’t believe it’s 2022 and we’re still having this conversation. I understand where it came from because there were some some generations before us and whether it was based on gender or race or lots of other classifications, there were certainly some meaningful discrimination happening. I’m shocked that, that it’s still a thing. The way I’m shocked, the wage gap is still a thing. I I’m proud to say in our company, it’s certainly not. I happen to think that and all the studies that I’ve read show that women actually control some 75% of, of household net worth in the United States.

[00:03:28] Kara Perez: Yeah so the statistic is about 80% of consumer spending and about 70% of household finances.

[00:03:37] Eric Brotman: Got it. So if that’s true, how is it possible, and I ask this, this is almost rhetorical because I know it’s possible, but how is it possible that if, if women control 80% of consumer spending, which by the way, is the largest share of our economy, and they control 70% of household wealth or household resources, how is it possible that they’re not they’re not experiencing the same financial and economic power as their male counterparts? That’s that that’s counterintuitive.

[00:04:10] Kara Perez: It is at first glance, but actually when you step back and think about it for a second, it begins to become very clear. So for example a lot of that consumer spending statistic is based off of. A woman’s romantic status. So if someone is married, they count household finances.

Now that doesn’t necessarily mean that the woman’s working. So this ties back to the idea of the wage gap, right? This money that a woman is controlling is not necessarily money that a woman earns or that is in her name as an asset. And that’s really important. So it’s what happens a lot, what makes up the bulk of this statistic, is that it will be a married couple, a man and a woman, where the man is working primarily, or is the breadwinner in the family, handing the money over to the woman saying, okay, you pay the mortgage. You pay the light bill. So the woman is the one who’s actually like it when polled is like, yeah, I manage the money, but it’s not, she’s not actually the person necessarily earning the money. And so there’s that kind of behind the scenes disconnect in a lot of this data.

[00:05:20] Eric Brotman: Is she, in that case, whether she’s earning it or not, is she controlling how it’s spent an allocated or is she sort of clerking for the household?

[00:05:30] Kara Perez: It’s really often more of a clerk situation. And the other big thing is that a lot of the major assets in married couples are not often in both names. So for example, it might be that the man owned the house. Woman moves in. She’s not on the title to that house. She might get added later, but that’s actually quite an intense process, which is kind of a different topic we can get into. And a lot of couples just think, oh, well, we’re married. Like, you know, the law will like, if, if God forbid something happens, like you’ll just get it when I pass.

And actually that’s not often the case, especially if there are children or if there is a previous partner, like an ex-wife and there’s some sort of alimony agreement. And so, of these things that we kind of, again, at first glance, we’re like, yeah, well, this doesn’t make any sense. And then when we pull away a layer, it becomes clear that there’s all of these smaller little hoops that need to be jumped through to actually get to equity.

[00:06:28] Eric Brotman: Now women live longer than men on average. I think it’s up by like close to seven years. If I’m not mistaken. And men tend to marry younger women. And, and I know we’re just talking about heterosexual couples here, but, but for for the purposes of this discussion, if, if a man and woman are married and the man is five years older than the woman and the woman outlives him by seven years, that’s a 12 year period of widowhood. And we know that having lesser earnings leads to lesser social security, potentially a smaller pension and things that are going to be required to maintain dignity in old age, which feels like a, it feels like it’s booby trapped almost.

[00:07:06] Kara Perez: Yeah, this is another kind of great situation to explore. It definitely… so a big thing that for me, when it comes to financial feminism, I think a misnomer is that financial feminism can be achieved by having more rich women. And that’s really, for me, not the end goal. Of course I would love for there to be more wealthy women, but actually what I want to see is a change in the way our systems approach money.

So I want to see a change in state and federal law around inheritance. I want to see a change in state and federal law around wages. And when it comes back to this idea of, okay, well, women are living longer and even in same-sex couples, there’s a couple of very interesting statistics around that we could dive into RE: women’s money. What’s important to really remember and really focus on is that if you’re going to be living longer, ideally, right? If like, that’s the assumption you’re getting married with, or that you’re approaching your life with, it’s so important to have assets that are in your name. Now those might be joint assets, like a joint bank account or a joint investment account, or it might be something that is in just your own name, like a spousal IRA or your own Roth IRA, because those are things that will remain with you that are not dependent upon another person. Because if that other person passes away, there is a very real possibility and we see this happen every day, that that asset will disappear out of your life.

[00:08:39] Eric Brotman: So, you know, we’ve been doing, I’ve been doing financial planning and wealth management for close to 30 years, and we work with families all over the country. And one of the things that we really insist on early on in our client engagements and on an ongoing basis is a full review, not only of estate plans, but of beneficiary designations. And we’re involved with some corporate wellness programs where we go to various companies and we’ll talk to the employees and we’ll pull up their beneficiary designations.

And it is shocking how many are either blank or wrong. And so this becomes a hazard. It’s not that they can’t do it. It’s that they either don’t know to do it, or haven’t done it properly, or haven’t looked at it in 12 years. But if your ex-spouse is still named as the beneficiary on something, he or she is still going to get something when you go. You can’t undo it beyond the grave.

I know there’s community property variables there in certain states. And there’s a big difference between, for example, the 401k law versus the IRA law whereas in a 401k, if you are currently married, your spouse must be the primary and sole beneficiary of the plan, unless he or she in a notarized statement is willing to waive that right. Whereas in an IRA you can name anybody you want. And I think people fail to realize that sometimes, too. How do we educate people? I mean, I certainly know how we do it on a household by household basis, but how do we educate people that those beneficiary designations supersede even a will, if you have one and that the, the property ownership, the joint ownership has different forms and they mean different things. And what’s really going to happen if you become widowed tomorrow? How, where, where do people get that and how do we educate them? And how much of that is just basic financial literacy? There, Kara, have a 12 part question. That’s exactly what podcast hosts are not supposed to do. That is why I did not win the Plutus award that you won. Cause I asked you a 12 part question. So the floor is yours.

[00:10:32] Kara Perez: Yeah. Well, I’ll start with your last question first, which is how much of that is basic financial literacy.

And I would say all of it. It’s it’s basic in that everyone should know this. Right? You know, we agree on that. I think everyone agrees on that. It’s not basic in that it’s difficult to understand. And to the other part of your question, which is like, how do we get the people the information? Honestly, like at the end of the day, I don’t think it’s going to come from individuals like you and me with our podcasts and our websites and our social media.

It has to come either A: from the companies themselves. So from the brokerages themselves, or it has to come on this larger level, like a personal finance class in high school or a company saying like, Hey. When we’re hiring you and when you’re signing this paperwork, like you need to actually fill out a questionnaire that says, you know what you’re doing, as opposed to just check the easiest box. Because those are the systems, that’s what I mentioned earlier, that we’re all caught up in. And if someone doesn’t listen to podcasts or isn’t on social media, we could have all of the greatest information in the world but if they don’t have access to that, or they’re choosing to opt out of that, they’re not going to see it. But if you’re at a job or if you’re using that brokerage, you can’t opt out of that. Right? So that’s where the information really needs to come from.

[00:11:57] Eric Brotman: So you said something magical to me, which is the idea of personal financial courses in, in high school. And I would certainly throw college in there too. There are so many reasons why these don’t exist. I have not met a single human being who doesn’t think it’s a good idea.

And yet I’m sure I know you’ve, you’ve done work on a national stage and you’ve been involved with this conversation on some of the major publications and major networks and so forth. How much of the pushback do you think on getting personal financial literacy education in schools. How much of that is based on either teachers not knowing it well enough to teach it or the unions not wanting to have those courses added to the workload for instructors?

There’s so many, it’s such a hot potato. There’s so many reasons why it’s not happening. And yet I, like I said, I don’t know a single person who doesn’t say, yeah, we should do that.

[00:12:49] Kara Perez: Yeah, I think it’s actually a combination of two different things. I think it is one, the curriculum. It’s hard to standardize a curriculum because of the variables in where you live.

So if you live in New York city, for example, like you are. And you’re trying to give students like basic tax education. That tax education is going to vary wildly from someone who lives in upstate New York. So even though you’re in the same state because New York city has it’s own laws and regulations around taxes, it’s wildly different from another place in that state. So I think that states really struggle with that, of how do we get a standardized curriculum when personal finance is inherently personal and relative to who you are and where you are. I think that’s a challenge that a lot of people absolutely could begin to solve and are just sort of like I’m overwhelmed. I’m not going to do that.

And then I also think on again, this, this larger level, like let’s say a bill goes on the floor of Congress. It says, you know, all public schools are going all public high schools are going to have to start teaching a personal finance class junior year. Again, coming to a consensus about what should be… coming to a consensus in Congress: hard. And coming to a consensus around what should be taught and around who wants to support that again, coming like all of the senators supported by like TurboTax and Intuit. You know, I would imagine that Intuit would lobby against this because Intuit sells software that people pay for that teaches them this information. So like, why would Intuit want to undercut its own profits? It’s not going to want to do that. I would imagine, I would imagine.

And then finally I did see an interesting Twitter thread about this a while back that was sort of like, you know, I was a smart kid in high school and I was like, kind of interested in finance, but like nothing became really solid until I had skin in the game. Meaning like nothing became solid for this Tweeter until they got their first apartment. They got their first job. They started having money really mean something to them. And they began to realize like, oh, my credit score matters.

And I think that’s also a valid point. Like a lot of 16 and 17 year olds would take the class and be like this is great. I’m really into investing now. And a lot of 16 and 17 year olds would take the class and be this just doesn’t matter to me. I live at home, I’m not working right now. I’m trying to just get into college or I’m focusing on football. You know, like it’s, it wouldn’t be real to them. And that I think is like a more nebulous problem that I don’t have an answer to.

[00:15:31] Eric Brotman: So where does gender play a role in this, in terms of what young people are being taught either at home and they’re not being taught in school, but you know. I’m the father of a 12 year old daughter who I want to do everything and anything she ever dreams of and never be reliant on another human being the rest of her life and to be fiercely independent and by gosh, to bravely go. So how much of this is, is some of it just inherent still in the way we raise our children? Or am I reaching too far?

[00:16:00] Kara Perez: No, actually, there was a really interesting study done in 2020 that said that parents on average pay their sons more in allowance than they do their daughters, which was wild because a lot of parents are exactly like yourself, you know, especially of, of girls or of non-binary kids who are like, yes, I want you to go out and you can do whatever you want. And that is messaging that we give to them in some ways. And then there are these deeply ingrained practices or biases that we might not even be aware of that do come out. And like, when I was growing up, I have two brothers, and my mother always asked me to clear the table when we were done eating and she never asked my brothers to do it.

And finally, some, I remember I had like a breakdown when I was 16. I was like, why are you doing this?! Like we yelled about it and my mom yelled back. But then later it was. It, because when I was.. My mom is the oldest daughter of a family of five. She has two brothers and she was like, my brothers never, ever did any housework ever, like growing up in the sixties and seventies never did any housework.

And she’s like, it just never, I know that’s wrong. Or like, I know the boys need to learn how to do the dishes. And I know the girls can do anything they want, but like, I think about that on a bigger level. Girls can be president, not on a like I have to ask the boy in my house to take the plate off the table.

So I think we often just overlook some of these things. And unfortunately, that, that does mean that some of these negative cultural practices continue to live on.

[00:17:38] Eric Brotman: That’s fascinating. And I don’t know whether to be surprised by it or not, but what it does provide is a recipe for this to take another two generations before we figure it out.

And we don’t have time for that. We should get on this sooner, right? Did you see, there was a, there was a, an advertising campaign ages ago. I don’t remember what the product was. I think it may have actually been feminine hygiene products, but I don’t recall. I know I wasn’t the target market for the ad campaign, however it was all about, you know, running like a girl. And I don’t know if you’ve ever seen this or heard this, but there was this piece about, they asked these young kids, these like ten-year-old and plus, or minus, you know, what’s it like to throw like a girl or to run like a girl? And they all put on these ridiculous displays.

And then they asked these young kids, many of them girls, now, how do you do it? And it looked nothing like the stereotype of “throwing like a girl.” it was like, these are athletes. They can, this stuff is so ingrained. This whole, “like a girl” thing. Like what do we do with that? And maybe we’re going down a rabbit hole we don’t need to, it’s not personal finance related. In some ways it is. If we’re expecting our sons, and I say our, the collective we. If we’re expecting our sons to go out and, and be, you know, engineers and architects and lawyers, and we’re expecting our daughters to become Housewives I don’t think we’re doing anybody any favors.

[00:19:07] Kara Perez: Right. Yeah. I haven’t seen that, but that is fascinating. And unfortunately, I think it’s very inline with how a lot of people still think of things like, you know are you familiar with Harry Styles, formerly of one direction?

[00:19:23] Eric Brotman: I’ve heard of Harry. I couldn’t, I couldn’t pick him out of a lineup, but I’ve heard the name.

[00:19:29] Kara Perez: Well, he’s a very famous singer, British singer. And he was on the cover of Vogue, I think in 2020, maybe in 2021 wearing a dress. And everyone lost their mind. And a lot of the negative feedback was rooted in how a man wearing a dress was inherently weak, was, because anything, we have this cultural understanding of things related to women are weak. Anything feminine, like pink is, is a girly, weaker, smaller color than blue, right? And these are huge cultural norms that you and I are not going to knock down. You know, we really need collective action on this. But it was really shocking to see just how much negative feedback this got, because in some ways we’ve made such huge strides, you know, with gender, with, with sexuality, with all of these things, to, to normalize it and to change some of the conversations we’ve had, but there is still so much work to be done.

And if anyone is listening to this and thinking, oh my God, it’s also overwhelming. Remember that, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. And so within our own households, within our own practices, within how we discuss things with our friends, we can make those changes. No one expects, I certainly don’t expect anyone to like go out marching the streets and be like, “men can wear dresses.”

You know? Like, I mean, you can, if you want, but also if you are in conversation with someone and a man walks by wearing a pink shirt and someone goes, “oh, that’s weird.” You can be like, “I think he looks nice.” And then you can move on with your life, you know, and that’s a way of knocking that down a little bit in getting that person to think like, “oh yeah. Why can’t that man wear that pink shirt? He does look nice. It brings out his eyes.”

[00:21:23] Eric Brotman: It’s funny because you could say that at that dinner party or that lunch party, and if I said it, people would look at me the same way they looked at him. And so, so this is, you know, strangely sort of bigger than just one of those simple examples.

I want to shift gears cause we have we have a limited amount of time today, but I want to shift gears and talk about Bravely Go, which I believe is, when I think about bravely go, I think about boldly go. And I think about star Trek, cause I’m a nerd by training. And so I think you, you now are on the cusp of having the second most, the second most famous split infinitive ever to bravely go. Tell us about that. Tell us about what you’re, what you’re doing and where that came from and even the name because I love it.

[00:22:03] Kara Perez: Yeah. I did ponder over the name for many, many months because obviously at first glance it doesn’t have anything to do with money, you know, it’s not like, and so many of the companies do, you know, it’s like smarter wallet and wallet wealth or something like that, which are all great.

But for me, I really wanted a company whose name and whose ethos kind of transcended just straight personal finance information and really spoke to an approach of how I want to live in the world. Like I want to bravely go do things. And it was really important to me to have that adverb bravely because it is in motion.

Like I am currently doing this. And so that’s why I came up with the name there. I also think that you do need to be brave to kind of face your finances. You have to have a certain amount of courage to dive into the world of money, because it can be very scary. It can be very unwelcoming, especially if you’re not finding voices or people who look or sound like you or come from your kind of background, which is where I started. When I got into personal finance, it was 2014. I was making $18,000 a year. I was working very part-time as a caterer. I had a bunch of student loan debt. I had about $20,000 in student loan debt. And I just felt trapped.

I was single and I was looking around and I Googled like how to pay off student loans faster. And I found all those really fabulous like MarketWatch and CNBC and Forbes articles of, of people who are like, I bit off $200,000 in a year and you know, here’s how I’m retiring at 32. And I was like, oh, that’s amazing.

And then, you know, every time there’s a fabulous story, there’s usually some sort of fabulous money in there somewhere. And it’s like, oh, this person had a very high paying job and they were overspending and then they stopped and redirected that money towards debt. And so they paid it off in a year, things like that.

And I was like, okay, well I make 18 grand a year. I really there’s not, there’s only so much budgeting I can do here. Very low, right? So I initially started my blog just to kind of Chronicle my own journeys and to be this low-income voice I wasn’t seeing as I paid off my student loan debt, as I learned, you know, what VTSAX was and how to buy it and what an IRA was.

And so that’s how I got started and then it evolved into, okay, I don’t want this to just be my personal journey. I really want to just kind of be a springboard for other people. And so I know a lot of other personal finance bloggers and personalities. They share very openly their net worth and their income and stuff.

And I tend to shy away from that because I don’t want the focus to be on me. I want the focus to be on WE. Like, how are we paying off our debt? How am I helping you invest for the first time?

[00:24:57] Eric Brotman: I love that. And I, and I don’t think that’s a subtle shift. I think that’s that’s a significant shift from some of the, some of the, Hey, whoa, look at me kind of thing.

And, and that’s not to say people shouldn’t tell their personal stories. I think being authentic is incredibly important and being able to share where you’ve come from is important, but to be relatable and to have advice or suggestions that are accessible matters a lot. I will tell you candidly, that my first job also paid me $18,000 a year out of college, I will also tell you it was 1993. So it was a little, so just for the record, I don’t know where you were in 93 and I’d prefer you didn’t tell me because I’d probably be very upset with you. But, but, you know, we both started in the same spot. It was just this whole inflation thing and cost of living thing that changed it a little bit.

So let’s talk about your, your podcast, which continues to rack up awards the top money podcast for women by Forbes, by the balance, you’ve won Plutus awards. Just really exciting. It’s called The Fairer Cents. C E N T S. So that way, unlike bravely go, you did use the, the money piece on the podcast.

Tell us about the show. Tell us about your audience and tell us what you love about it.

[00:26:09] Kara Perez: Yeah. So the show is personal finance through a social economic lens. So we take specific issues and look at them, not in a, like, necessarily… here’s what an IRA is. Here is how to open one. It’s not this straight educational, it’s more of a let’s zoom out and let’s look at the very big picture here. So one of our most popular episodes is on the cost of giving birth in the United States. So we have, you know, some numbers and we speak, like I spoke with a doula and we speak with a parent, a mother about their pregnancy and birth experience. That did very well because like a lot of people are having kids and giving birth in the United States is a weird, weird situation and paying for it is even weirder because hospitals won’t tell you, you can say like, oh, you know, I’m coming in. I’m going to be induced on january 19th, how much will that cost? And hospitals are like, “we don’t know until it happens.” So it makes it very difficult to plan financially for that. So that’s kind of the approach that we take to the show. It’s been super fun. We’ve had such a good time doing it. We do focus on trying to share the mic with people who don’t have their own platforms necessarily, but they do have these really interesting, fascinating stories that resonate with tons of people. So that’s kind of the story around the podcast.

[00:27:44] Eric Brotman: There’s so many, so many follow-ups I want related to that. And it’s interesting. Do you know of any other business where someone will say, I don’t know what it’s going to cost until it happens? Imagine going to a nice restaurant and sometimes you see market price, but they’ll tell you what the market price is, but imagine going to a nice restaurant and just getting surprised by the bill at the end. Like what? So I’m not surprised that that’s true. I am shocked that it’s, that it’s legal and that it’s okay.

But that’s another show entirely. So we’re, we’re nearing the end of our time together, Kara, which I wish we weren’t. Cause I, I, this is one of those days where I wish I did a one hour show instead of half hour. So maybe we’ll have to have you back, but where can folks learn more about you? I know you’re everywhere, although not you weren’t in my you, weren’t in my Google search for this particular verbiage, but you’re everywhere. So tell us where we can find you.

[00:28:34] Kara Perez: Yeah. So my website is a bravelygo.co, not .com. I don’t know who owns that website, but it’s not me. So don’t go there. And my social media is @webravelygo on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok. And then just @bravelygo on Twitter. And you can also email me you know, if you have thoughts about financial feminism or anything I said on this show, please feel free to slide into my inbox. I’m pretty much always in my email. And what else? Let’s see. Oh and of course there’s the podcast and that’s, that’s it. I think that’s all the ways you can get ahold of me.

[00:29:13] Eric Brotman: Well, if people get ahold of you in all of those ways, you’re going to get restraining orders against some of them. That’s about seven different touchpoints for people to choose their favorite way to get in touch with Kara Perez, who I hope everyone will. Check out her show. It’s a unique and amazing. And w what, you know, at some point, if you’d have me, I would love nothing more than to be a guest on the show, maybe in a in a way where we do talk about some, some some gender specific issues and, and the fact that financial planning isn’t only for the ultra wealthy, it’s really for everyone.

And so we could talk about those kinds of things, but this has been great. We need an extra credit assignment. We need that one takeaway. What can folks do right now, having spent some time with you and gotten to know a little bit more about you today?

[00:29:57] Kara Perez: This was the first thing I did when I was beginning to get my financial life together. It’s a really small win that you can do from anywhere, which is to log into your bank account and open up a new savings account for whatever goal you’re working on this year. So if you’re like, this is the year I go to Thailand, or this is the year I buy a house, or this is the year I, I get a motorcycle. Open up a new savings account, separate from anything else you’ve already got.

Nickname it motorcycle, and start saving into that. Don’t leave all your cash in just one big lump sum and it’s supposed to be Thailand and motorcycle and emergency fund. Getting organized is always the first step towards growth.

[00:30:43] Eric Brotman: That’s a great assignment. I do wonder if potentially your emergency could involve riding a motorcycle across Thailand.

[00:30:51] Kara Perez: That might end up being the case.

[00:30:53] Eric Brotman: I mean, that would seem like an emergency to me. I wouldn’t last very long either on the motorcycle or in Thailand. But I love your, I love your message. It’s great advice. And whether it’s, whether it’s for something like real estate, whether it’s for a special purchase you know, whether it’s the engagement ring fund, whether it’s the sinking fund for a home. And, and certainly I’m sure you’d feel the same way about folks who are chipping away at their student loans. Did you, did you have a student loan nightmare coming out of school too?

[00:31:19] Kara Perez: I had about $25,000 total. So I ended up paying about $30,000 back with interest. So certainly not these horror stories of, you know, $200,000. But when I was very low income until I was about 27, so it felt like a hundred thousand dollars.

[00:31:36] Eric Brotman: Yeah, no. I mean, when, when your student, debt is more than your annual income, it’s going to take a whole lot of time, most of the time, to chip away at that. So that’s a show for another time too. These student loans, some of them, we’ve got to figure out how to get people not to do that anymore. At least not at that crazy level. So well, Kara, this was great. Thank you so much. You were an amazing guest. I knew you would be. It was a bunch of fun and I hope I get to see you at a, at a conference soon and root you on for the next Plutus Award.

Yeah, I’m

[00:32:04] Kara Perez: sure we’ll run into each other in person sooner rather than later.

[00:32:08] Eric Brotman: Sounds great. I’d like to thank all of you for listening to Don’t Retire… Graduate! today. If you like what you hear, please subscribe and rate our podcast on Spotify or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Please also check out our books, workbooks and online financial literacy resources at Brotmanmedia.com.

We’ll be back next week with another installment of office hours and in two weeks with another engaging guest. For now, this is your host, Eric Brotman, reminding you: don’t retire. Graduate!

[00:32:34] Narrator: From this day forward. Let us begin changing the way we view retirement. Today, I implore you: don’t retire. Graduate! Visit our website at brotmanmedia.com to subscribe and please like us and post comments on social media.

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